Daneel | Video

[thezerothlaw]

I must say that I have found the process of dreaming to be an interesting experience. I did not think that once I had returned to my normal state after having been human I would be able to experience it again, though other people's dreams was not something I anticipated.

[Daneel's manner is, as always, solemn, but he seems to have a certain extra weight to his words today. He has a serious matter to address.]

To anyone whose dreams I may have intruded upon, I beg your pardon.

[With that out of the way, he straightens.]

I have always considered humanity to be something other than myself, and something greater. There are a number of traits I have thought myself incapable of, but now I am not certain of that. A redefinition is necessary. I have an important question, and if anyone can spare the time to answer it, I would greatly appreciate it.

Namely, how would you define a sentient being that could be referred to as a person?

Comments

[all replies audio]

[unsanguine]

I would very much like to hope the aspiration is enough. That to want to be a--person is to be it. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be much to strive for, does there?

Re: [all replies audio]

[thezerothlaw]

This is an optimistic point of view.

[That's not a criticism, merely an observation.]

I may wish to be many things, but if I were to aspire to being a planet, that would be a sign of serious mental disturbance, not a sign that I am actually a person.

[all replies audio]

[unsanguine]

Yes. It doesn't seem to be much use to be anything else.

[You like that Churchill quote, Daneel? Hal probably has more. ]

...er. I'm sorry, I don't follow. A person aspiring to be a planet would still be a person, wouldn't he? Albeit one without much to do.

[Video]

[gayspider]

[Alec raises an eyebrow.]

That depends, on what the sentient can do.

Re: [Video]

[thezerothlaw]

[He tilts his head to one side.]

I don't follow you. To what do you refer?

Re: [Video]

[gayspider]

Well, do you have any powers a normal human wouldn't?

[Alec is a little short with his reply.]

video.

[intelligently]

[ There's a small frown, a curious one ] You were human?

Re: video.

[thezerothlaw]

Yes. For a short time, many here were transformed into things other than what they normally are. It should be impossible, of course, for an inorganic construction such as myself to have become human, but it is nevertheless true.

[intelligently]

I wouldn't exactly call here normal. [ Just saying ] What was it like?

Video

[recognize_an_opportunity]

That's not a question I've ever given much thought to. It's an interesting one, though.

[A pause.]

You were in one of my dreams a couple days ago.

[It still sounds strange to say that, but it's true.]

Re: Video

[thezerothlaw]

Yes, I recall.

[Strange, to meet like this now, to become aware of him first in dreams.]

My apologies, we have not been properly introduced. My name is Daneel Olivaw. I am a humaniform robot, which is the basis for my wishing to explore this matter.

Re: Video

[recognize_an_opportunity]

Nice to meet you, Daneel. Ned's told me about you.

[A pause. Did that sound strange or questionable somehow. He decides to move on.]

I'm Meyer Lansky.

video

[hung_garian]

Wouldja really say 'greater'? Humans are smelly and leaky and gross and they do an awful lot of killing each other. Plus that whole emotions thing they do looks like a lot more trouble than it's worth.

[Of course, what he's saying is almost the exact opposite of his real opinion. He actually believes that humans are brilliant - better than most species, including his own. He doesn't say that often, though, and he wants to hear more about what Daneel thinks of it.]

Re: video

[thezerothlaw]

I have always considered humanity to be such. From my admittedly limited experience, I judge humans to live very intensely, to experience the world around them with a perspective I cannot myself achieve. They are, however, undeniably persons.

On the other hand, I am a creation of humans. Am I less for being made rather than evolved? If I am necessarily less than my creators, am I still a person regardless?

video

[hung_garian]

Do I look like a philosopher to you, pal?

[He shakes his head.]

You're a person - if you've got enough in the way of thought and personality to ask and care, you're a person. I'm not human, and if someone told me I wasn't a person, I'd blow 'em up. The only important criteria for being a person are sentience and sapience, and it seems to me you've got more of both of those than a good few humans I could name.

[enchangement]

That which can honestly ask.

[thezerothlaw]

The act of asking if one a person is enough to classify one as a person?

[It can't be that simple, but River's opinion is worth a lot to him.]

Then have I become a person? I certainly did not question this in the past.

[enchangement]

In most and many cases, in yours specific, yes, you have and yes, you are.

Changes in personal status aren't always an event. They are a process.

( a u d i o )

[mentis]

I used to consider it as someone who had free will. [ There's an odd tone to his voice. Charles the younger was even more optimistic than this one. ] But then I came to realise that free will can be ripped from someone so easily.

[ He doesn't mean himself, despite all that his power can lead to. He thinks of Erik. Erik does not consider himself so but the way he grasps on to his freedom is such a human trait. The survival instinct. ] It's a very difficult thought, isn't it?

Re: ( a u d i o )

[thezerothlaw]

Free will is hard to define, and easily removed.

[From one telepath to another, even if very different sorts, that's something that's painfully obvious.]

If free will cannot be used as a definition, what replaces it?

( a u d i o )

[mentis]

An idea of self? Although that depends on whether or not you believe animals are aware of much.

<video>

[zen_navigator]

[Dirk doesn't really understand what Daneel is talking about with the whole being human thing, but he is usually up for a philosophical discussion.]

Cogito ergo sum, right? Though...that does bring into question just how much cogito is required to sum.

Re: &lt;video&gt;

[thezerothlaw]

[The Latin is a bit of a mystery, but the rest is obvious enough.]

I believe I follow you. At which point does mere intelligence become true sentience and personhood? That is what I'm attempting to determine, and I believe that's what you also mean. Did you have insight into this matter?

[burnburnburn]

There's no point in asking most people here that, they've never lived in worlds with more than humans in. If you're not human but you can think, you're one of the 'kin. What were your ancestors before they could think?

[thezerothlaw]

I believe this is a misunderstanding. I had no ancestors, except in the figurative sense. I am not organic at all, but a robot, though one designed to appear as human as possible.